The Epic Journey: Poker World Champion Builds $3M ARR SaaS from Scratch!

Upendra Varma: 00:00:00

Hello everyone. Welcome to the B2B SaaS podcast. I'm your host Bhupendra Verma and today we have David Dhanushkar with us. David here is the co founder and CEO of a company called Bipi. Hey David, welcome to the show.

David Daneshgar: 00:00:10

Hi, thanks. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Upendra Varma: 00:00:13

Yeah. All right, David. So let's try to understand what Bipi does, right? So can you just explain a bit about that?

David Daneshgar: 00:00:18

Yeah. Whippy is an automation platform. It uses a lot of automation AI for people in the real world or old school world, as I call it. So like, you know, there's a lot of automation AI for e commerce, for example, but for, for a staffing company or a pharmacist or a lawyer, a lot of people are doing a lot of manual work. And what we do is we sit down and understand, like, especially on communication, like what are things we can shore up and we see. Like a classic example we see is like when, when an HR company, someone applies for a position, person goes, looks at the resume, shoots them a call, a text, an email, tries to get information from them, puts it into their CRM. And a lot of that stuff can be automated. Um, and so the platform uses text. Email and soon voice to help triage those situations, whether it's customer support, whether it's um, whether it's sales, whether it's marketing. And right now the motion has been mainly like SMB, but we've created a very robust A P I. So even a large company that wants this, and that would be a more of an enterprise motion can use our API to build it. Sorry to buy rather than have to build all of this themselves off of Twilio or something like that.

Upendra Varma: 00:01:32

So it sounds a bit interesting, right? So is, is the product, you know, built to support a lot of use cases by default. Like, I look at, you know, emails and there's sequences, campaigns, and then there were, you know, calls. Looks like a whole bunch of them, right? So that could cater to anybody and everybody, right? So like, just help us understand, like, what's the vision or thought process here, right? So like, how are you positioning this product?

David Daneshgar: 00:01:54

Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a little bit of a challenge, right, because most people say to focus, like, focus on a specific niche, a specific product, and I think my last company that I was at called Bloom Nation, we did e commerce for local florists. So the messaging was very clear, the positioning was very clear, I mean, the only thing is what we ran into was the addressable market, right? You're a TAM in SASC. You were very good. You were like an industry leader, but it was fixed. When we started WIPI, we thought, let's look at problems that people have. And let's see if we can solve those problems to a solution. And so it was very hard to start WIPI because we didn't know who we were. And what's happened is in each case, what we've done is we've solved the real problem for a specific niche in a vertical. And then we've really created that use case study. We've created a testimonial. We've productized it and create templates around it. And then we go to market in that industry, but it is much more difficult. To come really wide and then have to narrow down your focus, which is what we've done, but it is great for at this stage in our company, because now we have someone focused in this vertical. It's almost like companies within a company.

Upendra Varma: 00:03:08

Uh, so just help us understand your customer base, right? So how many paying customers are paying businesses? Do you have on your platform today?

David Daneshgar: 00:03:15

I think last I checked somewhere in the neighborhood of six to 700 paid accounts right now, I think the majority are, are more S and B. So it's like, let's say five to 10. Okay. A or R. So. Somewhere in the three, three plus million, uh, ARR, uh, kind of as a company, but what's happening recently is we're starting to see, like, we're trying to push up market, as I mentioned, and we've now have some deals that we've either closed a couple that we've closed. We're in the conversation. They're like a hundred K plus error. And that picture is a little bit different. It's not like going to an SMB and just being like, when you do this. You pay someone, I don't know, let's say you pay someone 40 grand to do that, and this software will do that, and you know, if we charge you 10 or 15 percent of that value, it's like 6K, or in the enterprise motion, it is, you want to build this off of existing tools, you need several developers, it's going to take you a year or two. That's developer resources. So that's a lot of maintenance. Um, also communications like a messy space like things go down or AT& T or T Mobile and you have to deal with that that issue with Twilio. A lot of people just want to offload that, especially at the enterprise level.

Upendra Varma: 00:04:28

So just help us understand these six, 700 accounts that you have, right? So do they belong to a particular, you know, vertical niche or industry, or, or are they using primarily for a certain use case? Or like, is it just spread across the spectrum?

David Daneshgar: 00:04:42

It's it's spread across. What happened?

Upendra Varma: 00:04:46

and how does your go to market motion, you know, you know, like how, what's, what's the GTM motion here, right? So if it's spread, spread across so well, right. How are you sort of driving all of these leads to your. And then just,

David Daneshgar: 00:04:56

Yeah, our go to market right now is actually no inbound. It's all it's 90 percent outbound. So it's a lot of cold, cold, cold email. So there's two ways to go at it. If you want to spread it wide. You might want to go at competitors. But, um, you know, you want to see what you can drive someone value. You want to see where someone pays. I think what you start to do is like, if you go after these verticals and you find niche A and, you know, they're willing to pay more because you're driving them more value. Like what you actually end up doing, this is like a more of a focus go to market is you're like, cool. I'm actually want to see if I can create a case that can we get testimonials from you? Is there a trade show you go to, is there a group you're a part of? And then they start to help you. And then you go from one to 10, cause you've already validated. Wow. This is someone. And I think we validated based on, on like, is it a daily use case? Is it usage? You want people where like, if Whippy was to go down for one minute, like they can't run their business. So in our case for communication, we want people that use this operationally. They use this as a daily use case. So when you find someone who's willing to pay for that, then you like get a rep and you really focus and those cold calls are very different. It's like, Hey David, who you might know does X, Y, and Z with us. And it's resulted in this, do you have time for a meeting? And you really then scale sales that way. So sometimes you go broad to like catch some fish. But when you figure out, Oh, this is actually something really meaningful, you really focus on that. And then you have a rep really drive that vertical or

Upendra Varma: 00:06:23

give us a few sort of cohorts, cohorts, right? So where you've been doing this, maybe lawyers or whatever those segments that you really doubled down on, just some examples.

David Daneshgar: 00:06:32

Yeah. Let's just take lawyers, for example, since you mentioned it. So like,

Upendra Varma: 00:06:36

So I want to hear from your data, like who those primarily are, like,

David Daneshgar: 00:06:40

Yeah. So let's take lawyers. So I think one good example of lawyers is like there's many lawyers. There's family law. There's divorce law. There's personal injury. And I think of those, the personal injury ones have been better because what ends up happening is each case can be worth a million. So you also want someone where like the wind can be a high ticket because then the time to realize ROI is quicker, correct? Um, you also want someone in a competitive landscape because if you give them automation AI, especially on a sales call, Okay. Like they won't care about the money. They want a competitive advantage and you want a clear use case. So for them, for example, I know when someone, you know, fills out a form on their website, if you can have a voice or SMS AI bot come in and like quickly say, I want to triage this and get you the right person, like that's the difference between like getting or losing a million dollar case. So in that case, that's an example of, you know, finding people on lawn and specifically focusing on the niche. And then when you do that in that example. We had a really good lawyer by the name of Bob Simon, who has a lot of pull, who is really close in the industry and became an ambassador for us as well. Mauro Fiori Jr., a big, big lawyer here in Los Angeles. So that would be an example of really going broad and then like really focusing.

Upendra Varma: 00:07:57

uh, makes sense, right? So, and like, how, how does the sales cycle look, right? In your case, like how long does it take to, you know, maybe close a typical deal?

David Daneshgar: 00:08:04

I think so. In our case, the sales cycle in general, it depends on like those two different motions. I think in the enterprise world, the reason so on the S and B world generally can be pretty quick. I mean, can be like, let's just say 60 to 90 days. Let's say 60 days on average. But in the enterprise world, the enterprise world that we're going after, it's generally longer for one of two reasons. One a. m. They like to get in sandbox, test stuff, test it with a location. So there's generally that, that motion. And then the second thing is they're using a platform now in the enterprise. Well, they're generally like a one or two year locked contract. So you're kind of doing things in a microcosm until they get out of that. So I would say for the enterprise, well, that we're living in, that's more like a one year sales cycle.

Upendra Varma: 00:08:52

Right. So, and, uh, and like, what's, what's, what's the vision here? So how do you intend to grow? Like what's, what's the GT motion gonna be for the next one or two years here? Is it still gonna be primarily outbound, or are you working on any other,

David Daneshgar: 00:09:03

Yeah.

Upendra Varma: 00:09:04

more traffic?

David Daneshgar: 00:09:05

Other channels. I think that's the main thing this year. So the outbound was great. It's something that, like, I was the only wrap and start in the beginning. Now we have three SDRs. But I think if you look at, like, B2B channels, there are many of them. I think I'm proud of doing outbound first because sometimes that's the hardest. It's also the most scalable. People do the others first, like inbound or referrals. That's how most SaaS companies start. And I think that's difficult. So I like to do the difficult thing first. But no, I think now there are other channels. So one obviously would be, like, inbound. Like, you know, doing more content, um, for example, referrals, affiliates, channel partners, trade shows, um, integration partnerships. So I think those are all things, even the enterprise is a new motion. So I think those are new channels that we're really pushing after. Um, we're, we're like right now looking to hire like a, a marketing lead to help. Get some of those, I guess, organic channels kind of started and they help by the way, I think one of the things that they didn't think of them enough. And I think now I think of more is by doing that stuff, it makes sales outbound easier because if you have good, and we've created this, but the case studies, good marketing, a better website. More brand it makes that call better, right? It makes even that sales reps outbound process. So they work together. And I think that is the big goal for this year.

Upendra Varma: 00:10:25

Talk about the team here, David. Right? So how many engineers you've got on your team and like, whatever, the rest of them

David Daneshgar: 00:10:30

So our team is around, uh, it's probably in terms of engineers, there's 10 engineers. There's our partner, Jack Kennedy work with me at bloom nation before phenomenal, phenomenal gentleman, who's really just owned kind of product development and, and, and just really taken us, I think, to the next level. I believe right now he has eight, uh, potentially nine engineers. So I would say that's just consider it for easy ratios. Just imagine that to be somewhere around 40 to 50 percent of the company. And then on the other side, the main places that you have are on, on sales and customer success. Those would be the other sides, basically obviously bringing it on implementation, onboarding. And then that's, that's a big thing I think we're pushing on as well. Is like, like, you know, negative net retention. So in the B2B world, you have like logo retention, which is just like, I have a hundred customers, it's, it's, it's inevitable. Some are going to leave. You just got to take that and learn from that. So let's say I go to 90 customers, that's like a 90%, you know, uh, logo retention, but those 90 customers don't pay me a dollar each, they pay me 2 each. So my a hundred dollars is now worth 180.

Upendra Varma: 00:11:42

And what's the NRR today? Uh, so what's your NRR network

David Daneshgar: 00:11:45

Yeah, I think we're we're targeting actually, believe it or not, that was our target, but was like 1 percent a month, negative 1 percent a month. So you're so, which is pretty big. So that may be too lofty. But I think kind of what we're looking at is You know, I think we want to get to like a hundred and we have some things coming up. So all the, all the net retention upgrades, I've been purely usage based. So we're a usage based platform. So I would say probably for every a hundred dollars that we brought in, we're trying to get a year later, at least right now to let's say 120. That's kind of where we're at, but, but I think that's just on usage. Now what's going to happen is we're bringing other channels and those could be product upsells and that could dramatically change that as well. But right now our kind of goal is to target 1 percent a month.

Upendra Varma: 00:12:37

and like, how long has it been, David, since you started the company? Like what's, what's the journey like? What's the backstory here?

David Daneshgar: 00:12:42

Yeah. So I would say, uh, bloom nation, which was the last company. We scaled it to around a hundred people. I think the sales org was around 40 and I think. AR was in that, you know, 10 to 20 million range now here about three years ago with my partner, Jack Kennedy, a little bit more, we didn't start with Whippy. We actually started like just getting back into it and like consulting, like building websites, looking at problems and getting on the inside of these local businesses. And I think that's where we saw

Upendra Varma: 00:13:13

So, so what happened with the previous, previous business? Did you manage to sell it or

David Daneshgar: 00:13:18

No, it's still there. I'm still on the cap table. It's still, it's still, I think, you know, actually, after I left, they'd raised more capital. So I think when I left, they'd raised another, I don't know, 10 or 15 million. So, you know, it's I sit on the cap table. I kind of view it as I view it as like, you know, uh, monopoly money until, you know, there's some type of material exit. Um, but that, I think that's helped because where a lot of people

Upendra Varma: 00:13:46

why did you get into, you know, typical consulting or helping out these people, like where, where did that come from? Right. So why did you just go on starting consulting business? Like what was the story there?

David Daneshgar: 00:13:57

well, I never want to start a consulting business, but what I thought is, what we both thought is, let's start to start, like, uh, my partner was helping to build just some basic infrastructure for companies. I think we started with like dentists and different stuff. I think the best thing to do is like partner with them, build stuff and see their problems and honestly see what they'll pay for. I think the one thing I've mentioned on other podcasts that I've done is then the classic mistake of B2B founder does is he goes to his friend and says, how much will you pay for this? Do you like this? Or sorry, do you, would you buy this? And they say, yes, everyone's going to say yes, but when with these customers, we would say, Hey, we'll build you something. Here's our stripe link. Go ahead and purchase. And then we knew, okay, they have a pain there. So, and then when we're inside, we're like, what are your other pains? And we realized like a lot of it was on the, on the messaging and communication front. Uh, and we'd go and sit at their office and see people and like, and then the dad's example, I would call them and like, say, Hey, actually, I want to book an appointment. Oh, actually, can you give me a call later and no one would follow up or stuff like that. So I think we just saw gaps. And the only way to see that is. To almost act as a consultant for the time being to really understand pains that people will pay for. I,

Upendra Varma: 00:15:06

And then when did you actually move from that? You know, primarily started focusing on enterprise fields.

David Daneshgar: 00:15:11

well, I think, I think that wasn't even whippy. I mean that his name was Whippy, but that was more like we were doing web builds and different stuff when we started moving to the world now, which was messaging, you know, and our software does, you know, uh, you know, a me mess, like team messaging. It does mass messaging, it does automated messaging. Um, there's a bunch of integrations like. We probably started moving in that direction a little more than two years ago, and that's when we really started to see accounts go and we hit a couple of accounts that really helped us, uh, supercharge error, uh, which were by the way. So the only way we could build things is if people paid.

Upendra Varma: 00:15:49

And you've grown it to grow past a million dollars, right? So in terms of PR.

David Daneshgar: 00:15:53

Yeah, we're at we're above three now and where our goal is probably to be a 10 in the next 18 to 24 months is where we're trying to go. And I think that goes back to the other question. I think outbound is a great channel, but I think to do that in an economic climate like this, right, and still stay bootstrap and lean, you do need to hit those other channels.

Upendra Varma: 00:16:18

And then, like, where's this money going to come from? Is it from enterprise deals or is it going to come, is it primarily from SMBs?

David Daneshgar: 00:16:23

No, I think that's a good question too. So like when I started this year, we created a, when we'd had our team meeting, rather than say, Hey, we're going to bring in this revenue, each channel that someone is associated with had an amount, even the customer success. I said, we expect to bring this much net retention, like rent retention in the enterprise rep, this much revenue from the SMB rep, this much revenue on like my end, which is like the partnerships. And like, let's just say like the trade show or outside sales, this amount. So I think it's from all, and I think we kind of put our estimates there and we kind of revisit them, but to get there, I think a simple way to say that is like probably, I mean, outbound SMB outbound has to be a little bit larger. Enterprise is something that will get larger than that as we start to build more products. Enterprise really is, I think, follow the leader. So in the enterprise world, it really is important to have a couple people that will go to back to you, and like their competitors, like, I want that too. So I think to build those, those things which we're doing now, you'll see a lag, a little bit of a lag, and then you'll see a boost.

Upendra Varma: 00:17:24

So when did you invest in, you know, getting all of this compliance certifications, right? I see SOC2, HIPAA, all of it, right? And I see them as being add ons, right? So it looks like you've been planning all of this enterprise solution for a while. So where did you invest in? What was the journey like? Yeah.

David Daneshgar: 00:17:37

That's a good question too. Yeah. So like, um, that was early on. So early on, um, my co founder, uh, well, we were looking at some enterprise accounts early on. And so we realized, you know, we have to go through all those accreditations. And I think for HIPAA, we just, like, I mean, to be even simple, like one of the people that wanted to use this software early was my parents. And we're like, they're a doctor. So we just knew if we want to, you know, you know, be a big company. And it happens to be one of the verticals that we're having success in does use HIPAA. So, um, HIPAA is important and SOC 2, you're correct. It was, um, us having the confidence to say that we are going to go up market and we want to get this, because that's a, like, as you probably know, like, if you don't have those things, it's just not a conversation to be had.

Upendra Varma: 00:18:28

Yeah. Like, and how much did your cost cost you in terms of money and the first rate? So, I mean, a specific question, but a lot of SAS founders are sort of trying to make that decision. They should be go for that or not. It's going to cost us 40, 50 grand and it's going to take a ton of developer time, right? So is it worth for a 10 percent team, right? So like, what, what, what's your thoughts and like, what did, like, what did you do in your case?

David Daneshgar: 00:18:48

That was a decision I have to give the onus to my, my co founder. Cause when we sat down, we kind of talked about stuff. But I would say on a lot of the product decision making, you know, I'm the CEO and he's, we, we are, we are partners there. And I think that's something that he actually wanted to take on. And I think while we had the time to do that, you're right. It was dev resources, but I have a fanatical business partner who is like, I can still do the things I'm doing and do that too. And so I was like, when do you sleep? And he's like, I'm not looking to sleep right now. Like I'm looking to get all this stuff done. So if you have someone that is that motivated, like, what do you tell them? Do you tell them? No, let's wait. No, no. You, you go with the, you go with the power, go with the

Upendra Varma: 00:19:30

David, yeah. One last question. Right. So do you, are you going to stay bootstrapped or do you plan to raise on any external funding?

David Daneshgar: 00:19:37

No, I think we, we plan to stay bootstrap. I think, I think it's given us the power to make the right decisions. Like I think if we raise money, um, I've just seen it where it's like, like, Oh, this is not going well, the sales motion. Oh, let's just wait. You can't bleed money anymore. I think if we were to ever take money, it would be something that would be like a liquidity event unless, unless like there is a very clear reason to take money. Like, Oh, there's this industry and like the competitor, it's going to take them one year to catch up and there's 10 million and they are there 5 million error. The only way to grab that in the next year is to like scale X. That would be a good example, but there has to be a high return on investment because when you do that, I do think you give up some of the optionality that you have as a company.

Upendra Varma: 00:20:27

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Thank you, David. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, right? Hope you scale PPP to much, much greater heights.

David Daneshgar: 00:20:34

Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here. Thank you.