Why we are focusing on specific use cases to grow our horizontal no-code platform

So, uh, uh, I think, uh, we realized that being

use case specific in these channels is the only way to go about it.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, and even.

on our app, even in the predict, uh, it makes sense for us to create things

that are more use case specific.

Uh, that is the only way

Hello everyone.

Welcome to the B2B SaaS podcast.

I'm your Hostra Verman.

Today we have Samir with us.

Samir here is a co-founder and c e o of a company called Utilize.

Hey

Samir, welcome to the show, HIRA.

Uh, glad to be here.

Alright, Samir, so let's, let's try to understand

what your company does and why

customers pay your money.

All right.

Uh, so, uh, so utilize is a tool for building customized

apps for disc list teams.

Uh, and, uh, you can build these apps without any coding and you

can, uh, come up with your own customized app in just minutes.

Uh, and we are focused on, uh, disc list teams.

So what that means is if you have like a team on the ground, uh, doing.

Some sort of blue collar jobs, right?

Like manufacturing, warehousing, field teams, or let's say

they're delivering something.

So all these teams who need, uh, apps, uh, to update data on a daily basis,

uh, more like productivity apps, uh, simple team collaboration apps, uh,

and, uh, our tool provides a way to build these, uh, apps, uh, in a dragon.

Uh, right from your existing, uh, data sources, like spreadsheets, uh, and we

make money, uh, on a subscription basis.

Uh, so our customers pay monthly.

Uh, uh, we have free and uh, and paid.

Got it.

Right.

So, uh, so what sort of apps are these?

Are these web apps?

Are these mobile apps?

What sort of apps are

we talking?

So these are, uh, uh, web-based apps.

Uh, these are web apps.

Uh, so that means there's a way to build this app and share it by a link.

On a tool.

Um, so we are not, uh, into native apps, any sort of Android I apps, because

most of these use cases are internal.

Mm-hmm.

. So it doesn't really make sense to have it, uh, downloaded from, uh, an app store.

Uh, so, uh, whether they can just build this web app and share by link.

Got it.

So let's, let's, let me, help me understand right, who, who

are your, you know, primary, uh, target customers who are, who are

using this?

So our, uh, customer base is, uh, kind of, uh, uh, map to what a product does.

So we are targeting companies that have desk list teams.

Uh, and like I said, I gave you some examples, right, like manufacturing

or, so can you talk about the industries they belong to?

If you have any existing customers, maybe just you can pick one and explain,

you know, what sort of apps they build

with your.

Sure.

Uh, so, uh, again, it's a, since it's a horizontal tool, since

it's a no code tool mm-hmm.

yeah.

Uh, there we have multiple use cases in it.

Uh, probably I'll pick one or two and tell you how it works.

Sure.

So let's say you have a factory, right?

Uh, you run, uh, a manufacturing business may not be e-commerce.

Let's say you're just a simple manufacturer and you have a factory.

Uh, and, uh, at.

In your business, you would want to collect data from your faculty teams, from

your warehouse teams, from your inventory teams, uh, any sort of data, right?

Order data, inventory data or uh, or just just your employee information.

When are they checking in, checking out any, any sort of data you would

want to collect it from the ground.

And for this, you need apps, right?

Uh, so, uh, to.

Tool provides a way to build that app, uh, without any coding.

Uh, so they can basically link their spreadsheets, which is limited to the

desk force, the the people who are working on desks, uh, and they can link those

spreadsheets and create simple web-based apps, uh, which are mobile friendly,

uh, for these, uh, uh, for these teams.

Uh, so what I gave you is like a manufacturing use case.

Similarly, the use case could be anything.

It could be a field team on the ground.

It could be a delivery team, it could be a warehouse team.

Um, And, uh, to answer your previous question, uh, so we are targeting,

uh, businesses like these and we are targeting people who sit at desk.

in such businesses, businesses that have a DISC list team.

Uh, and we are targeting businesses that are small.

We're not into enterprise sales at this moment.

So we are, uh, as is a low, low ticket business.

So most of our, uh, clients currently, uh, have less than 50 employees,

uh, in their desk list teams.

Mm-hmm.

. So, um, so yeah.

And, and, uh, sure, sure.

Let's, let's, let's

try to understand this a bit, right?

So as of today, right, so how many paying customers do you have on your.

Uh, we have about, uh, 10, 10 paying customers.

10.

10

and Sure.

And what's your approximate revenue that you did last month?

We have, we have 25 businesses using it.

Uh, out of them around 10 are paying , uh, and, uh, uh, revenue,

uh, at this moment is about $500.

Uh, r uh, that's how we earn monthly.

Um, and, uh, . Uh, again, like I said, most of these are small tickets, so yeah.

Got it.

But ticket size is usually around $50.

Right.

So, uh, I just wanna understand, right, why is the ticket size

solo, aren't you pricing it along?

The access of number of users using the product, uh, why is it just $50?

What, what does it take to sort of in increase that number to let's say

$500?

To be honest, uh, even we don't know why it's so low.

It started off, uh, outta uh, uh, I mean the basis is.

Uh, do something for small businesses.

Mm-hmm.

. So it start, it started out of, uh, for out of, uh, uh, a need to create

value reposition for small business.

So that's why we wanted to keep the ticket sizes low.

Mm-hmm.

at the beginning at least.

But then we wanted to also figure out how much value we are adding.

And I think we are in the process of understanding after position,

and for us to take it to $500.

Uh, one way for us to do it is to.

Target mid-size businesses, because right now our businesses are really small.

Right.

They're just moving away from spreadsheets.

That's how small they are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we can also target, uh, Bigger companies.

That's something that we're trying right now.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, but, uh, but at the core, we're still understanding our product.

So you're still

pricing your product along the lines of users and data.

Right.

I see you have like a limit on number of row and number of users, right.

So there's a potential to That's right.

Expand that account.

If, if they sort of start using your app more or more teams in a company

start using the build app, that is

possible, right?

That's right.

That's right.

So right now it's on users and data.

Uh, since you have a better understanding of the use cases,

we are trying to make the pricing even more simpler just on users.

Sure.

Uh, but, uh, yeah.

Uh, are, are the revenue scales with the number of users that

are there in the company?

. Upendra Varma: Sure.

So, so, uh, let's go back, right?

I wanna understand how you got these, you know, first I think you have around

10 customers, 10 paying customers.

Since the number is solo, you must exactly know how you got them, right?

How you ended up, you know, converting them to a customer.

So, I wanna understand the 0 2 1 journey of yards, right?

So talk about that first customer.

When, when was that, and how did you, just help me understand that story

of how you ended up converting them.

So our first customer is actually, uh, not,

uh, someone who has a team.

Mm-hmm.

, because that's not how we started the product.

We started the product for all sorts of internal apps.

Uh, and, uh, our first customer, again, it's a small business, uh, we literally

walked into their store, their factory understood what, what they're doing.

And that's a, uh, what sort of a factor.

So this is, uh, a factory that makes, uh, apparel, uh, they manufacturing.

Um, so they, the, the more like a B2B kind of a business.

Uh, they manufacture it scale and they needed some sort of app to track their,

uh, production line, uh, the inventory.

Uh, but, uh, we didn't convert them, uh, as in, uh, we converted and then,

uh, they immediately turned out mm-hmm.

uh, but.

Yeah, I mean, if you are, if you're, if you're talking about the zero to one

journey, I think we're still in that

process.

Sure, sure.

You are.

This is what, you've got 10 customers.

Right?

So I wanna understand, for example, just, just pick that first, first customer that

you somehow managed to convert, right?

So when you, when you ended up talking to them, right?

So do they even understand that?

Do they even realize the necessity for such a product of yours?

Right?

It looks obviously a bit innovative, right?

So if I'm, if I'm a B2B company, right?

If I'm running an apparel store or something, I might want to sort of

pick a company which has already built off the shelf solutions, which can,

which I can directly use, versus me asking one of my employees to sort of

build an app customized for me, right?

That might, that's not something that I might look for.

So, so what, what, how did they react when you say, Hey, we've got this for you.

Right?

So what, just help me understand

that story.

So, uh, so our first customer was someone who had an intent to build it on his own

because he was already using some legacy tools, some other no-code logo, not the

first, no-code tool that is out there.

Mm-hmm.

. So there are quite, quite a lot of, uh, existing no-code tools.

Uh, even like two years backup sheet is one of them.

And that's what he was using.

Up sheet is a Google's no code project, uh, to build up.

Uh, so.

. Yeah.

There, I think, uh, for us it was pretty straightforward for

him to, uh, understand it mm-hmm.

but then later on we came across a lot more customers because all our

initial customers are from India.

Mm-hmm.

, and most of these customers did not understand what's happening here.

Right?

Sure.

Yeah.

Like you said, they just wanted, uh, a simple software or they

just didn't need software.

Uh, and, uh, one thing that we realized is, uh, instead of.

Making these customers aware of how it works, uh, how important customer

software is, how NOCO can help them.

All these, all these are new.

new, uh, insights, right?

Mm-hmm.

, uh, and not everyone might have an intuition about them.

So we started targeting, uh, customers who already understood it.

Mm-hmm.

. So that's when we realized we should be a little more global.

Uh, we realized we should go reach out to customers who are

already using other no-code tools.

Uh, and, uh, uh, and that's, and currently we are in that process

of, uh, Trying to acquire customers who already, uh, use existing NoHo.

Yeah.

We, we'll

get to your, you know, future strategy in a while,

so I just wanna understand about this 10 customers first, right?

So, so, sure, sure.

When you talk about these 10 customers, right?

So what are the, like, how did you end up sort of, uh,

meeting them in the first place?

What, what two cha, like what acquisition channels did you use

strictly from that first session

perspective?

Yeah.

To be honest, our primary acquisition channels are, uh,

pretty straightforward, like mm-hmm.

mostly out.

Okay.

Was sending them emails or reaching out to them on Linked.

, uh, stuff like that.

Um, so

all so can, can, can we try to quantify that?

I know, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's obviously gonna be stuff like that,

but what exactly did it work for you?

Right, because I, I'll, I'll tell you why I'm asking this question, right?

I mean, industries in India who really don't have too much

of a digital presence, right?

Reaching them through cold email is not really gonna work as of today, right?

So, so how did you manage to sort of reach them in the first place?

So just you, you've got 10, I know you, you really know

where you got them from, right?

So what was that biggest, uh, growth channel that worked

for you, even for those 10?

, was it cold email?

Was it LinkedIn messaging?

Was it direct, direct sales?

What, what

was that?

So, uh, the customers that stuck with us, uh, because we saw customers coming and

going out since it, it was a product that has been evolving for the past two years.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, the customers who was, uh, who are still using our product, uh,

they mostly came through difference.

, uh, like someone suggesting, uh, the tool to them or uh, uh, or something

on those lines stream mm-hmm.

, uh, and, uh, they're not people who we reached out and convinced that, Hey,

this is a product that will work for you.

Mm-hmm.

. Right.

Uh, so, and when I say that, uh, those channels are usually through

email or through LinkedIn mm-hmm.

, which are, uh, but that, those

didn't really work for you.

Right.

So at least to get this to

Christmas, they really worked so far.

Mm-hmm.

So

far.

Yeah.

Obviously, obviously you're talking about the journey until this point.

Yeah.

So, so far it didn't work.

Uh, but now we, so, so when you

say, when you say referring referrals, right.

So I mean, it's gotta originate somewhere, right?

So because the, the customer base is so low.

I mean, you must know where, who referred whom,

right?

Is usually.

Someone who tried the product, who, who was on the tool.

And, uh, they suggested it to someone though these people did not come convert.

They, uh, told it to people who had a better value out of

this . Uh, so, uh, did that answer

your question?

Yeah, it did.

It did.

But I'm, what I'm trying to understand is, was there anything that you

did consciously to sort of drive this, you know, uh, referral sort of

behavior?

No, no, nothing in the product.

Mm-hmm.

. So there is no, even

in terms of marketing or in terms of, you know, getting your

existing customers to sort of, you know, hey, go and spread the word.

You gonna, like, did you do something like that or was it just organic

few?

There were a few, uh, referral, uh, strategies that you wanted

to incorporate into the product.

Mm-hmm.

, but that didn't make sense because ours is an.

Internal use case.

Sure.

Uh, let's say we had like an external use case for these apps then saying that it's

powered by utilize if it's a free app.

Yeah.

If it's a free tale.

Uh, that makes sense.

So we didn't really do anything, uh, that is embedded into the product.

Mm-hmm.

. But we usually ask, like whenever we talk to a customer, especially

in the initial days or whenever there's a new experiment, right.

Uh, even now we have a new experiment, new project, experiment that's running, but.

, what I was saying is like, whenever we reach out to a customer, we

ask them if, if they have other customers in mind who can use this.

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Sometimes of them or, so Yeah.

That's, that's the only way, again, like I said, uh, it's,

it's usually word of month.

Mm-hmm.

. Upendra Varma: Got it.

All right.

So, so, uh, let's, let's move forward, right?

I wanna understand where you're gonna go from now onwards, obviously.

Right?

So, my first question here is, right, so you've got a product, right?

That could solve end number of use cases, right?

And it's a, as you mentioned, it's a horizontal platform.

You could target anybody or everybody in the world and they, they might,

you know, sort of get that benefit.

It's a bad thing.

Yeah, exactly.

That's my question.

Right.

So now what's, how exactly are you gonna go forward, right?

So what's your strategy here?

What's your thinking here?

I mean, so just walk me through that thought process of

yours.

So, uh, one thing that we understood is, uh, if you have to build channels

that'll work, uh, for a long term, uh, basically sustainable channels, we

need to have some focus, uh, uh, on the use cases that we're targeting, right?

In fact, that is how we, uh, started, uh, uh, making the predict.

Uh, we started developing a vision around desk workforce.

Mm-hmm.

. Uh, so that itself gives us some clarity around the use.

And now within these use cases, uh, we're not targeting all the use cases.

We're trying to limit ourselves to some three to four use cases.

Okay.

And for each use case we're creating, uh, Apps, uh, app templates

related to that use case, right?

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Uh, and we're trying to be industry specific in each use case.

To give you an example, yeah.

If you, uh, right now we are looking at seo, uh, as a, uh,

as a potential channel, right?

And won't experiment there.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, and what we did is instead of writing.

, uh, gender content.

Uh, we picked like one use case, let's say field servicing use case.

Mm-hmm.

. And we understood different industries, at least the top industries in that use case.

And we are writing content around those industries, right?

Mm-hmm.

, yeah.

About the need for customer software, about whatever we're doing, right?

So, uh, uh, I think, uh, we realized that being use case specific in these

channels is the only way to go about it.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, and even.

on our app, even in the predict, uh, it makes sense for us to create things

that are more use case specific.

Uh, that is the only way we can, uh,

so yeah.

Uh, yeah, go ahead.

So that makes sense.

So you're essentially, you're focusing on few use cases going forward so

that you could sort of, you know, nail down a particular segment, right.

That's your plan going forward.

Yeah, that's, that, that's our plan.

Uh, But, uh, that's, that's one way to look at things, right?

Where we break down, uh, our, uh, our market into different use

cases and go after each use case.

Yeah.

But sometimes we can enter into the market, not through use cases,

but through existing communities.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, for example, today our predict, uh, is a tool to build

apps onto our spreadsheets.

More specifically Google Sheets.

Sure.

So Google Sheets users form, there's a certain community of users, right?

Mm-hmm.

. Similarly, there are other tools like let's say Shopify.

Mm-hmm.

is an existing community and there are Shopify users.

There's a community that we can, uh, go market as, and yeah.

So we are making those tweaks or improvements in the Predict, so that

will be relevant to these communities.

Mm-hmm.

. So, uh, that was

my original question, right?

So, I mean, you still, you, you still given me three or.

Potential ways that you could take going forward, right?

So now, which one are you doubling down on?

Because you can't do all of those things, right?

So you can't be a horizontal platform for Shopify customers at the same time.

You can't sell it to, you know, a field sales team, right?

So you gotta focus on something, right?

So which way is it gonna be?

. Sameer Sanagala: So right

that we are doubling down on.

Mm-hmm.

one is, uh, seo, uh, uh, that is, uh, use case specific that is industry specific.

Mm-hmm.

. So we're building, uh, uh, a small team, a content team so that we can produce

content, uh, for these industries.

Uh, and that's one big experiment that we're doing.

The second experiment is, uh, uh, uh, working on a new data source.

Uh, so there are, like I said, uh, Google Sheet is a current data source, so adding

a new data source, a new integration into our tool, uh, can help us.

Uh, Uh, market, uh, uh, the product in, uh, some existing companies.

Uh, so the thing is, uh, uh, we haven't really decided what data source it is.

Mm-hmm.

, like, we have a few ideas in mind, but right now we're not in a position to

tell you exactly what data source it is.

Uh, in fact, we have a good hunch on one data source, but I don't know if

there's the right time for me to say.

Sure, sure.

So your plan is to sort of, you know, experiment with these things

and then figure out, figure out what works best for you and double down that.

Is that what you're sort of thinking?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, to give you a gist, uh, we're writing, uh, uh, SEO content, uh, and

we're betting on that as a growth channel.

And, uh, we're also building, uh, like right now it's

building apps on spreadsheets.

Similarly, we're, uh, picking a different data source mm-hmm.

, uh, to build apps.

So that, uh, uh, we can start targeting a predict in that, uh,

community that uses that data source.

I'm not giving you

the Sure, sure.

That's, that's totally okay.

I mean, you've got it on your experiments.

Before you say anything very

conscious way, wish I can, but, uh, maybe if you're

publishing it at a later point, I can

give Sure, sure.

It's okay.

It's okay.

We can come back to that later.

Now, my question is in the first case, right, when you're trying to

build, use case specific, you know, uh, apps or whatever, Isn't it like,

you know, a new SaaS application that you're building for a particular

use case using your own platform?

Isn't it just.

Uh, can you repeat it?

So my question is, for example, uh, if you are picking a use case, for

example, right, and you're trying to build, I, I'm not sure if you're

building this templates, if you're trying to sort of tailor this product

for them, you might, you might just end up building a new software for

them for their use case, right?

And you'll end up selling that particular software, right?

So in that case, Excellent question.

Yeah.

In that case, you're not really selling your platform anymore.

Essentially, you've built a new SaaS application or new software, essentially,

and you're selling them to use cases.

Essentially.

You've got a bunch of softwares selling to different use cases and,

and your platform, the whole consumer of your platform, is it yourself,

your technical team who's using your own platform to build those

applications and then end up selling?

Right?

So is, is that how it's gonna turn out when you do this use case

specific?

Uh, so we, we are still being very use case specific, let's

say field service, right?

Mm-hmm.

, so field service is a use case and there are a lot of field service.

Software, uh, that are all it existing, which I think you're

term as SaaS software, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So now, Simon, today what people are doing is if you have like a field service use

case or a manufacturing use case, I'll go to the field service software or the

manufacturing service and start using it.

Yes.

But the limitation there is, uh, customizing that software is not easy.

Mm-hmm.

, right?

Uh, in, in most software, it's almost impossible.

Right.

And that's what our tool does, where we're like, we don't really need

like a fully blown out software, which is very tough to customize.

What you need is like, A simple app.

Yeah.

Where there is a very simple way for your team to be stay automated.

Got it.

And, uh, yeah, and customize like you need.

Absolutely.

Makes

sense.

Yeah.

Alright.

Alright, Samit, so let's wrap this up, right?

I wanna get your backstory right.

So when did you

start the company?

with this desk, class workforce.

Mm-hmm.

. Uh, if you asked us when, when, when did we register our current company?

When, when did you get, when did you get your first customer?

2020,

got it.

And how many folks you have on your team and what's your founding team look like?

. Sameer Sanagala: So we

Uh, Han and myself, Han takes care of, uh, the tech side of things.

Uh, but, uh, and I take care of all the product and market side of things, but,

uh, that's not exactly how things are.

Sure.

Uh, everyone does everything.

Uh, but, uh, besides us, we, we don't really have anyone full-time.

Mm-hmm.

, keeping it lean.

So we have like a bunch of interns and, uh, freelancers working with us,

and we're, uh, around seven people.

Got it.

And have you raised any external funding so far to grow your

company?

So we didn't want to, uh, initial, uh, in the initial days we remained

boots stamped until this year.

Uh, and we basically didn't raise money as such.

Like we joined an accelerator and we got a convertible, uh, note from them.

Uh, and this is like, this is, uh, antonian based, uh, Europe based, uh,

accelerator called Startup Wise Guys.

Uh, and we did this.

Basically, we, we were done with our savings.

Like we burned all.

Savings and then we'll need some more money to, uh, get this experiment running.

Yeah.

Uh, and that's when we join this accelerator.

Yeah.

Alright, Samir.

Alright Samir, thanks for taking the time, taking time to talk to me.

I hope you scale utilized too much, much greater heights.

Thank you.

Thanks a lot.

It was a pleasure.