Scaling Without VC: The Journey of eWebinar with Melissa Kwan

scaling without vc

In this episode of the B2B SaaS podcast, dive into the remarkable journey of E Webinar with its co-founder and CEO, Melissa Kwan. Discover how E Webinar, a pioneering webinar automation solution, has scaled to new heights without relying on traditional VC funding. Melissa shares insights into the company’s founding, unique features, growth strategies, and vision for the future, offering valuable lessons for entrepreneurs and SaaS enthusiasts alike.

  • Discover the story behind E Webinar’s inception and its unique features catering to sales and customer success needs.
  • Gain valuable insights into E Webinar’s growth trajectory, from bootstrapped beginnings to crossing the remarkable milestone of a million ARR.
  • Explore the strategies behind E Webinar’s success, including its product-led growth approach and focus on SEO and content marketing.
  • Learn how E Webinar navigates customer support, trials, and conversions entirely self-serve, emphasizing product excellence and customer satisfaction.
  • Delve into Melissa’s vision for the future, focusing on sustainable growth, team well-being, and success without the need for VC funding.

Whether you’re an entrepreneur, SaaS enthusiast, or interested in balanced business growth, this episode offers invaluable wisdom and inspiration.

You can also watch this episode on youtube here.

Transcript
Melissa Kwan:

Well, we just crossed a million ARR, um, which

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I feel like it's a big milestone.

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So thank you.

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So this is the biggest, like

now officially the biggest

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company I've ever built

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Upendra Varma: Hello everyone.

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Welcome to the B2B SaaS podcast.

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I'm your host Upendra Verma and

today we have Melissa Kwan with us.

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Melissa is the co founder and CEO

of a company called E Webinar.

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Hey Melissa, welcome to the show.

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Melissa Kwan: Thanks for having me.

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Upendra Varma: All right, Melissa,

let's try to understand, right.

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What E Webinar does and why customers

are willing to pay your money.

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Melissa Kwan: Okay.

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Uh, eWebinar, um, is a

webinar automation solution.

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So we turn any video into an

interactive webinar that you

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can set on a recurring schedule.

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So you can do hundreds of them every

single month without needing to be

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in front of a camera to do it live.

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So we scale, um, you know,

live webinars, things like live

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demos, training, onboarding.

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Um, we automate that for you.

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So you never have to do them yourself.

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Upendra Varma: Good.

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And what use case are you

specifically trying to focus on?

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Right?

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I mean, I could see a lot

of use cases here, right?

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So I'm, I'm assuming you must

have, you know, you know, zeroed

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down on a couple of them, right?

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So what use case are you

trying to solve here?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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Um, I mean, there's two primary one is

of course, like sales and marketing,

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like Legion, people using this for like

sales pitches, demos, thought leadership.

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And then the second is customer

success, which is like post sale.

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So it could be like training

content, onboarding.

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As you can imagine, if you have a tech

company, a SAS company, um, you know,

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you've got like lots of onboarding and

training to, you know, deliver to your

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customers, but we also actually serve

a lot of non tech companies as well.

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Like insurance companies.

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You know, real estate companies that

are constantly training their agents

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on like new regulations, new products.

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Upendra Varma: So if I joined

one of your webinars, right?

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Does it look like a real webinar?

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Do I know I'm on an automated setup

or like, how does it even feel?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah, I think we've

done a good job into making it look

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and feel more like an interactive TV.

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There's a two way participation

where there's what we call a lot

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of interactions that come up.

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So like, Polls questions, uh, you

know, contact form sales notifications,

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you know, things that pop up.

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So there's like things you can, I guess,

play with for the lack of better term

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as you're watching the experience.

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So it's less like a zoom or you're in

it and like someone's talking at you.

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And then there's a chat system where

you can like ask the host questions.

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They can respond in real time

or respond later through email.

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So it's kind of like a support chat.

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Um, I mean, it looks and feels Not

so much like, like it's live, right?

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Like we encourage our customers

to never lie to their customers

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and say it's live when it's not.

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But it, it's almost like the

Netflix of webinars, right?

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Like whether you're watching friends.

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At 7 p.

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m.

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on a Thursday when it's live

on network or watching it on

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Netflix, it's the same show.

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So I would say, like, people know that

it's not 100 percent live because they're

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getting it immediately and when you

click on the registration page, there's

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like 10 time slots you can choose.

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Um, but, you know, it's more of a hybrid

because there is a chat that you can

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respond in real time if you want to.

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Upendra Varma: Yeah, my question here

is like, I mean, does it work, right?

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So, I mean, if I'm watching a

webinar, maybe I'm attending

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to hear to somebody, right?

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So, but if it's something that's

recorded already, and if you already

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let me know, like, I'm just trying

to understand like what, what's that,

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you know, drop off rate between a live

webinar or something like this, because

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this is like wonderfully scalable.

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That's very obvious.

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If I'm a, if there's somebody sitting

in a sales team, I would definitely want

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this, but yeah, does it work as good or

even better than what I have right now?

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Melissa Kwan: I mean, you're asking

the founder of a company, is it

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better than what you have right now?

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So I'm going to have to say yes.

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Upendra Varma: And I'm assuming

you'll back it up with some,

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some data or something.

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So that's,

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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And so, um, yeah, I, I mean, let's put

the whole drop off thing, like drop off

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rate thing to the side for a second.

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Like I think the attendance rate to

live events, because it only happens

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one time is, is known to be low.

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Right.

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I would say like 20 percent

or lower because people sign

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up and they want the replay.

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Cause like 11, your time is 11 PM my time.

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So I sign up to get the replay,

but maybe I never watch it.

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Right.

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We all have replays we don't watch.

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Um, and that's accepted as the norm,

but just because that's a norm, I

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don't think that has to be a reality.

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I think the nature of having something

be accessible anytime you want and for

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the quality to be even better than live,

because The content's tighter, the video

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quality is better, there's no housekeeping

and questions and interruptions.

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Our, uh, our average attendance

rate across all of our customers

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is 65 percent on average.

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My demo, like, you know, because people

are really by nature of coming to my

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site, watching my demo, so they're

most likely going to come in, but the

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attendance rate of my demo is 90%.

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Anyone that's run a webinar before

knows that that's impossible.

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These are impossible rates,

but it's because we're making

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it available at your schedule.

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I'm not forcing you to fit my schedule.

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So I think that's piece one.

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Um, the question that you ask

is like, what's drop off rate?

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Like, well, I can't speak for

everybody because drop off

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rate is fully dependent on.

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The person delivering the content, the

industry, and is the video quality good?

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Is the sound quality good?

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But I want to say that because

it's pre recorded, the quality, the

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scripting, the video quality, like

can be much better and much tighter.

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And we give you the option within

the software to allow people to

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watch in like playback speed, right?

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So to watch in like 1.

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5.

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I cannot sit through something That

is like a, you know, normal speed.

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Every podcast, every video, I watch at 1.

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75.

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All of them.

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So, I'm gonna drop off if I watch a live

webinar or live event because I'm bored.

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But if I'm going to something

automated and I think there are

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other people like me, I can choose to

watch it faster if I want to, right?

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So I think that's kind of the

main difference, but I think drop

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off rate is fully dependent on

like, Are you delivering value?

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Upendra Varma: yeah.

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And that's a great pitch Melissa.

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I think I got a sense of what you're

trying to say here, but let's move

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on to your customer base here.

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Right.

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So as of today, right, how many

paying customers do you have

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on your platform approximately?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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So I think we have like, I think

just under 800 companies now.

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Upendra Varma: And then like,

what sort of, what sort of deal

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sizes are we talking about here?

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Right.

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So like how big of bigger deals, I know

there's going to be a spectrum here.

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Right.

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But like typically what.

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For your ideal customer, right?

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How much would they typically pay you?

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Is it a 10, 000 deal?

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Is it a 100, 000 deal?

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Is it a 1, 000 deal?

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Melissa Kwan: So we're, uh,

we're a self serve platform.

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So we're, we're a product led growth SaaS.

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So it's a, it's a low investment product.

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So we start at a hundred bucks us.

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And then, so it goes from like

a hundred, 200, 300, and then.

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It kind of goes up from there.

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But our average is, I think a hundred and

I wa I wanna say like it's $150 a, a team.

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Um, is the average

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Upendra Varma: That's per month, right?

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That's per

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Melissa Kwan: per month?

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Yeah.

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Upendra Varma: right?

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It's around 2, 000, something like that.

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Your ACV, something like that.

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Got it, right?

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So yeah, and just let's move on, right?

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So where are people

discovering you, right?

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So where are you getting all

of this growth from, right?

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So what growth channels have

been working for you so far?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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So my, actually, my post today on

LinkedIn is about all the $0 marketing

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strategies that, that we, that we

deployed in, in, um, the past three years.

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But I wanna say ss e o

and content, which we.

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Um, like the strategy we own is

the most successful, um, marketing

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strategy that we have over 50 percent

of our demos actually come from there.

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Um, I share, you know, two to six times

every single week on LinkedIn, just not

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related to company content, but like my

experience bootstrapping three companies.

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So 20 percent of our

demos come from there.

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Um, and then there's a

lot of other stuff, right?

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Like.

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Not just SEO optimized content.

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We create a lot of co marketing

content, like guest posts, templates,

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trainings for, you know, things that our

customers and prospects find valuable.

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And we put that content out there.

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Um, and then there's also like,

you know, getting into app

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stores, right, doing integrations.

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Once you do an integration, maybe

they'll do like a, an announcement.

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So.

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There's all this kind of stuff that

kind of has like compound interest

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over time, but I want to say like

social media and like SEO optimized

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content are the two major traffic

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Upendra Varma: And I want to

deep dive a bit into this, right?

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So, and in terms of content, right?

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So what sort of content

are we talking about?

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Is it just, you know, SEO optimized

blog posts, which are long form?

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Is that it?

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Or do you have any specific

strategy that's going on?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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I mean, I think content is broad, right?

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The idea of content is broad.

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So, um, of course, like SEO key, like

heavily keyword research, like, um,

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content is like long form content is

like I would call SEO optimized so

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that those are like 50 percent of our

traffic comes from organic search.

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Pieces of content or like, of

course, social media posts, templates

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within our, um, you know, within

our products, customer case studies.

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Getting people to write reviews on

like G2, Capterra, all those things.

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Creating resources that I share with other

founders that are completely unrelated.

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So like, a good example is a

financial projections Excel document

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that you can copy and paste.

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Um, I have, you know, I actively

get on other people's podcasts.

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So like, You know, the podcast

that we're, we're on now, right?

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It's, it's a marketing

strategy of mine as well.

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I've had a podcast in the

past with 15 episodes.

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All of it is evergreen content.

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Every single one of those

has a page on my site.

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So these are just like some,

some of the more obvious things.

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Um, and then, you know, the less

obvious things I would say, like

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getting HubSpot, you know, Marketo,

Salesforce, and then having people

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discover us through there as well.

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Upendra Varma: So, so Melissa,

you talked about your LinkedIn

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strategy as such, right?

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Where you typically go out and share your

own bootstrap journey, your story, right?

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That people connect with and

maybe they come to you, right?

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So my question is like, does the

customer base you're trying to

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target overlaps with that, right?

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So do you have a good overlap there?

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Because if there's No overlap.

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It might not make a lot of sense.

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Right.

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And, and I asked this question,

everybody, because I mean, everybody

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says like, okay, just go ahead.

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Be honest, share your journey.

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But I mean, if that doesn't match, right.

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So it's not going to make any sense.

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Right.

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So in your case, what's,

how does that look like?

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Does it match?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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So, um, and that's a great, that's a great

question because, so I took a course on

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like how LinkedIn works from Justin Walsh.

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Uh, I don't know if you know him

as a creator, but his whole like

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method is write about something

within your expertise that attracts

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the audience you care about,

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Upendra Varma: Yeah.

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Melissa Kwan: otherwise it's useless.

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So the best customers for eWebinar are

resource strapped companies, right?

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Right.

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Because we are almost

like an extra person.

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That are doing these webinars

for you and resource trap

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companies are bootstrap companies.

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Like they are my number one

target customer or like small

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medium companies, right?

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Which consider themselves

kind of boots bootstrappy.

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So, um, it just, it just was just such a

natural fit that I would only write about.

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Like stories from my bootstrapping

journey to attract other bootstrappers

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and then they come to my profile and the

main link that I have is, is ewebinar.

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com.

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So for me, it definitely

matched, but you're right.

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Like, if you're, if the content

you're putting out there is not

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attracting potential customers.

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They were, they're never going to come

to your site, but I think there's a

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reason why 20 percent of our demos

actually come from LinkedIn is because

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there is, there is an alignment there.

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Upendra Varma: Got it.

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And let's move towards

the bottom of your funnel.

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Right.

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Is it completely self serve?

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Right.

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Or do you have any, you know, touch motion

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Melissa Kwan: self serve

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Upendra Varma: Okay.

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Melissa Kwan: zero.

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I refuse to, I refuse to talk to anybody

regardless of how big their company is.

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It's about training your customer.

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Like I know I hate calls and I didn't

start a product to be product led.

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So that I can talk to people.

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I did that in the beginning, right?

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For the first year, because like

every company starts off sales led,

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I had to sell probably our first

a hundred deals, but that gets

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tiring pretty quickly because you're

not getting the return, right?

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Sales cycle is long and it's

like a hundred bucks to start.

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So when somebody comes into the funnel

and they're like, Oh, I would like

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to talk to a person before I sign up.

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The answer is no, I will not talk to

them because if I talk to them once.

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They'll know that after they sign up,

they can get me again and again and again.

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And so it's part of me, like training

my customers to know that we're always

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there on support, on text, on email.

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And they can get us at

any time of the day.

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They just can't get me on the phone.

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Upendra Varma: That makes a lot of sense.

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So, so what happens in your funnel, right?

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Is it like, okay, somebody discovers

you if they start a trial and then

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they essentially after, you know,

whatever that time period is, they

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just have to subscribe to a paid plan.

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Is that it?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah, that's really it.

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Right.

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You know, they join a demo, um, after they

join a demo, they get entered into like a

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Upendra Varma: But that's

an automated demo, right?

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So there's nobody sitting out there.

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Yeah.

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Using your own

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Melissa Kwan: That, we use our

product to deliver our demos.

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So like, I think last year over

:

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I didn't do a single one live, but

there's a kind of a 10 day, very

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quick follow up like every second day.

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And then they get it put into like a six

week kind of follow up and then they get

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it put into a sequence of getting one

mail per month about like, you know, how

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customers are using us and things like

that as kind of a nurture campaign if

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they do not sign up and don't convert.

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If they sign up, but don't convert,

then they get put into kind of

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a different, a different track

of 12 emails over the next year.

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Uh, but really just to remind

them that, uh, we're here.

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But everything is like self

serve and super simple.

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Upendra Varma: And then just,

can you just quantify how

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this funnel looks like, right?

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So what sort of a conversion rate

are we talking about for somebody

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who signs up to somebody who

becomes a paid customer of yours?

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Approximately.

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So,

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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So about, um, 20 percent of people

that join our demo will sign up on,

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um, on a, on a trial, but of course

not everybody has to watch a demo

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before they sign up on a trial.

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Like some people sign up

without, without that.

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Um, and then depending on the month,

I guess our conversion rate from trial

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to paid is anywhere between 35 to 40%.

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Before we doubled our prices.

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So our prices when we started used to

be 50 and now it's a hundred before

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it, when it was 50 conversion rate

was about 60%, but we had a lot more

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churn and we had a lot more people

that weren't very tech savvy and needed

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more support after we raise our price.

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Um, you know, we had less trials.

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You know, a lower conversion,

but it's a net positive

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because we are charging double.

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But the major positive is we're

getting more serious people signing

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up, not just people signing up because

we're cheap and they need a bunch of

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handholding and then don't convert.

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Upendra Varma: so what's really

been working for you, right?

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I mean, I'm assuming they're

like bunch of, you know,

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competitors out there, right?

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So, so how do you establish that

credibility during those, you know,

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14, 20 days when they're using

your product for trial, right?

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So how do you manage to convince them?

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And if you're not getting into

a call, right, so how are you

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establishing that credibility?

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Why, why, why do they have to pick you?

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Right?

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So what's, what's happening there?

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Like, what's the secret sauce?

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For

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Melissa Kwan: two things.

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Um, one is we have the most

incredible product by far.

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I want the customer to be in deep research

because if I was the first person you

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come to, you have nothing to compare to.

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If the first car that I saw was a Ferrari.

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I'd be like, well, what else is out there?

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Maybe, maybe there's something better.

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Maybe the seat's too low.

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Like, I'm not sure, right?

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But anyone who is deep in research

and has seen like two or three other

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products or maybe five or six, they'll

come to us and be like, this is the best.

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So that's number one is

like, you have to have

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Upendra Varma: And what

do you mean by the best?

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Is it like, what's, what's that feature?

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Like, is it in terms of feature set?

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Are you talking about usability

or performance of what's okay.

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Melissa Kwan: And I, I don't

say that lightly, right?

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We have the most features.

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We have the only chat system

that lets people hop in real time

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or respond later through email.

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It's not a fake email

box that looks like chat.

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It's real.

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We have 20 different interactions.

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It looks and feels like

the Apple of webinars.

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And this is words, you

know, from our customers.

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Number two is.

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For better or for worse, we

are always available, right?

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:

We have a small team, everybody's

on support seven days a week.

384

:

If someone's awake, they're responding.

385

:

And this is part of trust, right?

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:

Like, of course that's not

sustainable over time as we get

387

:

bigger, but people feel close to us.

388

:

They feel like we're human.

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:

You're not getting put in a

queue of tickets and someone

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:

responds to you in five days.

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:

And we listen to your feedback and we

actually implement it if it makes sense.

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:

So our

393

:

Upendra Varma: that even if I'm

just starting a trial and I'm

394

:

not your paid customer, would

you reply to me immediately?

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:

Okay.

396

:

So that's my next question, right?

397

:

So like, like I'm assuming now that your

customer support is not automated, right?

398

:

You've got people, you know, just, okay.

399

:

And what's the

400

:

Melissa Kwan: we have a very, we have

a very big, no, but we have a very big.

401

:

Like help center.

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:

So it's automated in that sense.

403

:

Like any, any question they have, maybe we

have an article like we don't help them.

404

:

We don't get on a call.

405

:

We only help them through text and email.

406

:

Um, like we, we just use

HubSpot for, for ticketing.

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:

Um, but we have a very.

408

:

quick response time and a very

huge library of help articles

409

:

that they can actually go through.

410

:

Um, but I think the most important thing

is we make them feel present and we make

411

:

ourselves trustworthy and we make our

customers feel like they're part of the

412

:

process so they can impact the roadmap.

413

:

So they make a difference in our product.

414

:

So I've heard that like time and time

again, it's why people pick us is

415

:

because our support is really good.

416

:

Upendra Varma: And Melissa,

what about churn here, right?

417

:

So I'm assuming you're spending a

lot of time in ensuring that your

418

:

customers are successful, right?

419

:

So what sort of churn rates are we seeing?

420

:

I mean, obviously after

increased prices, right?

421

:

So now that you've got a bit less churn.

422

:

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, I mean, I think

churn is normal, especially for SMB.

423

:

Um, I think our churn is

anywhere from like eight to 10

424

:

percent revenue wise a month.

425

:

It's higher than I want it to be,

but it's also because we've never

426

:

worked on that part of our business.

427

:

We've always been like chasing something

else, but actually as we speak, this

428

:

quarter is the first quarter where we're

looking at how to better activation and

429

:

churn and onboarding by, you know, More

better in app messaging, better emails.

430

:

We just installed user pilot.

431

:

We don't even measure anything.

432

:

We have no stats on our customers.

433

:

We've just been like.

434

:

Chasing features, chasing revenue,

but now we're in a place where

435

:

we can like breathe a little bit.

436

:

Um, but yeah, like churn is, is higher

than I want it to be, but there,

437

:

you can't, you can't save all churn.

438

:

Right.

439

:

If that makes sense.

440

:

Like some people are just not ready.

441

:

Some, and maybe like, maybe some

people sign up and it's more,

442

:

it's too expensive for them.

443

:

Maybe they're not even

ready in their business.

444

:

Um, I I've heard this really great

thing before where it's like when, when

445

:

customers or when companies obsess about

churn, it's almost like leaving a party.

446

:

Where people are having a great time

to chase after people who left because

447

:

they're not having a great time, right?

448

:

It's, you should, you should find more

people who want to come to the party.

449

:

And that's what we've been doing.

450

:

And that's why customer case studies

and reviews is such a big part of

451

:

our marketing is we want people,

we want to find more people like

452

:

them and not focus too much time

on like, Oh, why did you leave?

453

:

And when did you leave?

454

:

And let's measure why you left.

455

:

Like that, that is actually

less important to me.

456

:

Upendra Varma: So Melissa, let's

talk about the backstory here.

457

:

It's have you raised any external

funding so far to build your company?

458

:

Melissa Kwan: So we do not

have any institutional funding.

459

:

So no VC, no private equity.

460

:

We do have like friends and family

funding in the beginning to get started.

461

:

But David and I, David

is my CTO co founder.

462

:

We wrote the first checks.

463

:

So we invested financially, of

course, and our time, um, into the

464

:

business to, to get it started.

465

:

Upendra Varma: And then like, as a

free, are you completely bootstrapped?

466

:

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

467

:

I mean, I would consider that bootstraps.

468

:

Like we don't have zeros funding, but

I think having zero funding is, is a

469

:

misconception of bootstrap companies.

470

:

Yeah, bootstrap

471

:

Upendra Varma: You've

got to start somewhere.

472

:

Yeah.

473

:

Melissa Kwan: yeah, you

don't have VC funding.

474

:

We have like friends and family.

475

:

Upendra Varma: And then

how big is your team today?

476

:

Melissa Kwan: We have all

contractors, zero employees.

477

:

But as for full time contractors,

we have eight people.

478

:

And then we have like some

part time on as needed.

479

:

So as needed is like

Designers, contract writers.

480

:

Upendra Varma: who built

the entire product?

481

:

Is it just, you know, you,

your CTO working with this

482

:

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, my CTO, yeah,

my CTO, we've got a team in Vietnam.

483

:

We have a team of five developers,

developers in Vietnam, and

484

:

we just recently brought on

another senior from Ukraine.

485

:

Um, but he is like the

lead of the products.

486

:

He still, he still writes code and he

manages the development team as well.

487

:

I wish I can code, but.

488

:

You know, I can't.

489

:

Upendra Varma: All right.

490

:

So Melissa, so what's,

what's the big vision here?

491

:

Right.

492

:

So where do you see your company going

in less than next two to three years?

493

:

Melissa Kwan: Well, we just

crossed a million ARR, um, which

494

:

I feel like it's a big milestone.

495

:

So thank you.

496

:

So this is the biggest, like

now officially the biggest

497

:

company I've ever built.

498

:

Um, honestly, my

499

:

Upendra Varma: And you've got

absolutely two people on your, you

500

:

know, what you say, permanent payroll.

501

:

Is that how we can see it?

502

:

Right.

503

:

So because everybody's a contractor.

504

:

Melissa Kwan: um, yeah,

I don't pay myself.

505

:

Um.

506

:

Yes, I hope to, and, and, you know,

in the next few months, um, but you

507

:

know, they're, they're, even if they're

a contractor, I would still consider

508

:

them on payroll because they're,

I'm just paying them differently

509

:

because they're far away, they're not

510

:

Upendra Varma: And are

you profitable today?

511

:

Melissa Kwan: Uh, I think we hit our

first profitable quarter last quarter.

512

:

But I don't pay myself.

513

:

So this is a big, you know, this is a

big detail is if I did pay myself, then I

514

:, but I did sell a company in:

515

:

So I'm, I'm, you know, living,

living off the proceeds of that,

516

:

um, which allows me to do what I do.

517

:

Um, yeah.

518

:

So I

519

:

Upendra Varma: Going back to the

vision of your company in the

520

:

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

521

:

The vision of my company, I

just number one, I want to pay

522

:

myself, not a small salary.

523

:

I want to pay myself a market salary.

524

:

You know, I've been doing this for

13 years and the only two years I've

525

:

ever had a real salary was when I sold

my previous company to a new company.

526

:

All of those years when I was working for

myself, I was not getting a market salary.

527

:

So I, I want to pay

myself a market salary.

528

:

I want everyone on my team

to get a market salary.

529

:

And my goal is just to make sure

everybody has a good time and live well.

530

:

And if In the future, we sell this

company that would be a bonus, but

531

:

it's not the thing that I'm going for.

532

:

The thing I'm going for is freedom

and lifestyle and making sure everyone

533

:

is taken care of and has a good time.

534

:

Upendra Varma: And are you going

to raise VC funny and VC money?

535

:

And are you going to sort of

chase that extraordinary growth?

536

:

Melissa Kwan: never.

537

:

I think I want to chase extraordinary

growth without VC money.

538

:

I think that's key.

539

:

Upendra Varma: Yeah.

540

:

That's wonderful, Melissa.

541

:

All right, Melissa, thanks for

taking the time to talk to me.

542

:

It's a wonderful conversation, right?

543

:

So hope you scale AWA now to

much, much greater heights.

544

:

Melissa Kwan: Thanks so much.

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